Thursday, September 4, 2008

The Beach Boys Network

The Beach Boys Network

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 06:38 AM CDT

In my experience sixties and seventies stuff sounds better on vinyl. From about 80 onwards I dont hear big differences, though. Some exceptions, I am sure, and as far as remixed stuff goes, you are probably right.
You really can't make such a general statement.
Actually, lance was making a completely subjective statement! (and hence, entirely valuable).
Correct, and it was not my intention to criticize his statement. What I meant was:

You can't make a general statememt that sixties and seventies stuff sounds better on vinyl. And I don't claim that lance stated it that way.

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 06:31 AM CDT


Ah but have you heard Love on vinyl?

I thought you were talking about Arthur Lee for a minute. Of course I had Forever Changes on vinyl years ago!

On the CD though you get a fab song called 'Wonder People' which should have been on the album really. By Love. Not the Beatles.  Grin

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 06:28 AM CDT

In my experience sixties and seventies stuff sounds better on vinyl. From about 80 onwards I dont hear big differences, though. Some exceptions, I am sure, and as far as remixed stuff goes, you are probably right.
You really can't make such a general statement.
Actually, lance was making a completely subjective statement! (and hence, entirely valuable).
However, the problem with this sort of discussion is that people tend to take sides (CD vs vinyl, digital vs analogue etc). Reality is that there's good and bad in both. Some 60s LPs sound horrid, some recent CD remasters sound sumptuous.
Someone mentioned Fagen's Nightfly. Ry Cooder's Bop Till You Drop is another - possibly first ever - early digital rock record which actually sounds very good (though Ry apparently hated it).
I put on BWPS a couple of days ago to confirm all this and, HDCD, valve microphones etc apart, it does slightly batter the eardrums.

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 06:25 AM CDT


Going back to the 'old stuff' - there have been some fantastic CD masters of old analogue tapes in recent years, which in many ways get the soup out of the old LP compression techniques - well, the original Pet Sounds box is an obvious example. The Beatles' Love CD certainly allowed one to hear things previously masked by mush, which gives some hope (I'm guarded) for the forthcoming Beatles remaster series...


Ah but have you heard Love on vinyl? You can still hear all those things you couldn't hear before...because they have been made more prominent by Messrs Martin's new mix.

And the vinyl issue of the remastered Pet Sounds is almost identical to the DVD-Audio (and yes, I can play the full resolutoin DVD-A).

Mind you, I have a decent turntable too...

There are big issues with the mastering of many current "pop" albums...and some remastered older material.

I am a big Genesis fan, and there are currently a 2nd lot of remasters doing the rounds for that band's older material. And the remasters sound AWFUL...compressed to hell, cymbals crashing around everywhere because the record company thinks that is what "pop" should sound like.

It's a fad, and it will move on....hopefully...

It doesn't help that many CDs today are being mastered on the assumption that we will listen to them in our cars, or hear them in public where they are competing with other sound for our attention. Which is a shame, because such recordings sound horrible, even painful, when listened to in isolation.

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 06:07 AM CDT

In my experience sixties and seventies stuff sounds better on vinyl. From about 80 onwards I dont hear big differences, though. Some exceptions, I am sure, and as far as remixed stuff goes, you are probably right.
You really can't make such a general statement.

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 05:38 AM CDT

In my experience sixties and seventies stuff sounds better on vinyl. From about 80 onwards I dont hear big differences, though. Some exceptions, I am sure, and as far as remixed stuff goes, you are probably right.

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Posted: 04 Sep 2008 05:05 AM CDT

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Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 04:04 AM CDT

Obviously vinyl sounds better for old stuff,

I'm not sure that's necessarily true though - while I agree with most of what's been said against present day mastering techniques (and agree that a lot of the problems happen in the mixing stage too).

Going back to the 'old stuff' - there have been some fantastic CD masters of old analogue tapes in recent years, which in many ways get the soup out of the old LP compression techniques - well, the original Pet Sounds box is an obvious example. The Beatles' Love CD certainly allowed one to hear things previously masked by mush, which gives some hope (I'm guarded) for the forthcoming Beatles remaster series...

Of course, the other thing about LPs is that you need a reasonable turntable /amp to play them on, otherwise the equipment ends up like your aunt's and uncle's - in the corner underneath the embroidered cloth supporting the aspidistra, never used...

Re: Brian on Jay Leno [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 03:52 AM CDT

Just read on the blueboard - it was Going Home.

Re: TLOS DVD [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 03:49 AM CDT

It is pretty obvious in the SMiLe DVD, WIRWFC Press Kit, etc. which scenes are staged for the camera. This doesn't mean that Brian didn't work on the album. I don't think people are fully fair to him for the work he has done over the past 10 years. He does have a great group behind him that works very hard, but just because there are staged clips on the videos, it doesn't mean that he is not doing the work on the records. A lot of the DVDs are probably staged;iIt is probably not easy for him to "act" as easily as Probyn, Jeff, Darian, et cetera.

That said, the DVD was kind of a circle-jerk.  I am sick of hearing about all Brian's been through in context with his latest work, as it sounds mitigatory to me and I don't believe he is in need of explanations for his new work. It stands up with the rest of his catalogue and is the latest in a line of albums that includes "Today!" "Summer Days..." "Pet Sounds" "Love You" "Brian Wilson 1988" "SMiLe" and now this... and I believe that it's his best solo record. So the condescending, apologetic tone of his EPK pisses me off, just as I can't stand how every foda interview with him begins with Q: How are you feeling today? A: A lot better, it has been rough this past [Year/Month/5 years] but I am coming out of it now. Ask him some questions relating to the music! A lot of us care about it, you know...

I couldn't agree more, but of course journalists will always want to hone in on the car-crash aspects of his life, same as they do with everyone else's.

Re: BLUE? vinyl 45 [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 03:47 AM CDT

I too, pre-ordered from Control, but as yet haven't received it yet. Tomorrow's another day tho. Will let you know if I get a colored single and if so, what color it is!!!!

Me too, and while the money was taken out of my account, I never received a confirmation and they haven't answered my e-mail enquiry. Crap.

Re: Drummers [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 03:18 AM CDT

Elvin Jones
Roy Haynes

Rock - Johnny Barbata

Quote
[Al Foster who plays with McCoy Tyner now is unbelievable ...i also believe he did a stint with Miles.
/quote]

I also like longtime Tyner drummer Aaron Scott.

Re: TLOS \ [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 03:01 AM CDT

Morning Beat -

The sun burns a hole through the 6am haze

White Lightnin' - Big Bopper, etc -

Well in North Carolina, way back in the hills


Southern California -

I had this dream Singing with my brothers

Mount Vernon and Fairway -

Dum Dum Dum Dum Dummm Ooooooooooohhhhhh (dum dum dum)

 Smiley

Re: Fleet Foxes??? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:47 AM CDT

There was a short interview in MOJO magazine a few months ago, accompanying the 5* review of the album, and the lead singer/songwriter said that it was Smile bootlegs that really turned him on to how spiritual and religious music can be. He e-mailed Van Dyke Parks and said he got a nice response from him.

I have a lovely LP vinyl version of the album that came with their Sun Giant EP on 12" vinyl in a gatefold package. Beautiful artwork (bruegel, i think).

Sounds like a cross between Smile, David Crosby's 'If I Could Only Remember My Name' and Harry Smith's Anothology of American FOlk Music. if this sounds an appealing combination, i suggest you check it out.

My favourite songs are Mykonos and White Winter Hymnal. Sheer perfection.

Re: Be My Baby [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:44 AM CDT

Quote
I think of it as similar to how Miles Davis often spoke glowingly about pianist Ahmad Jamal, who, while cool, doesn't seem anywhere near good enough in any way to be a major inspiration to a genius like Miles.

I rate Jamal as one of the jazz piano greats.  Right up there with Bill Evans, Denny Zeitlin, Herbie Hancock, and the like.  The source of his strength is a little more subtle because it comes as much (or more)  from what he doesn't play than what he does. His use of space has been a major influence in music, and certainly so on Miles.  Without Jamal's influence there would be no 'Kind Of Blue' as we know it.  Jamal's "Poinciana" from 'Live at the Pershing' is amazing.  He's still around and playing too. 
I agree though that there is similarilty between the Wilson-Spector and Davis-Jamal influences.  However with Davis it was somewhat about making a statement by minimizing while with Wilson it was somewhat about making a statement by maximizing.     
   

Re: TLOS DVD [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:43 AM CDT

Personally, i would rather not have the recreations of the in-studio experience, if all they are are recreations. And if that meant there wasn't enough footage for a bonus DVD (for which I paid extra), then that is fine with me.

I would prefer 20 minutes of unedited Scott-cam footage. That's the stuff real BW fans want to see and would be willing to pay for.

Re: TLOS \ [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:24 AM CDT

"It's hard to feel down living in this down when you're so far away" in Morning Beat sounds a lot like "Our friends splash in the surf, the whole beach is our turf" in Living Doll.

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:17 AM CDT

It is not a moot point because it reduces the dynamic range and introduces digital distortion. Albums are not automatically or necessarily mastered like that. The question is, who made the decision to apply the digital compression and limiting? Brian? Scott? Bob Ludwig? And what was their reasoning for doing so?
The entire machinery of the industry.
I am not sure what you are saying. There is no automated "machinery" for mixing and mastering. People are handling the tools, applying the effects and get paid for that. At some stage, someone either ordered digital compression (this would usually be the producer, i.e. Brian or Scott), or applied it by his own decision (this would be the mixing engineer or the mastering engineer). And this person had a motivation for doing so. I am asking, what motivation was this? Because TLOS needs to compete with the newest Kid Rock album and the Mamma Mia soundtrack in terms of loudness?

Re: it's good.. How could \ [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:16 AM CDT

Maybe, but I don't make dumb statements like "didn't have to raid the archives" that are patently untrue.

That was not a dumb statement, that was a mistake.

In case you hadn't noticed, the 'tedious' comment wasn't mine. I really appreciate you setting straight any mistakes I or anyone else here makes. And please don't stop doing that. But please keep in mind that we can't all be as well informed as you are (no sarcasm) and that there's no need to say that anything's "dumb" just because someone makes a mistake. If "California Role" is an older song, than I overlooked it on your 'unreleased songs' list... Sorry, my bad... And those other two things, well... Couldn't it be debated that those are more 'nods' than 'raidings'?

Re: it's good.. How could \ [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:11 AM CDT

There's really no reason to attack the thread-starter for this one. What's wrong with a wish list? Beach Boys fandom is nonstop full of it (take those last three words however you want). Someone sarcastically asks how you'd fix Pet Sounds? Everyone always makes suggestions on this very board: the most common response, by the way, seems to be replace Sloop John B with The Little Girl I Once Knew. Nothing is sacred, especially when you're talking about a record. Just a record. If you would like it more if A were B, or C were B, fine. Say so. I like TLOS a lot, but I have things I'd change. Doesn't mean I don't like it.

I agree, i've already constructed my alternate version of TLOS and I like it very much! Grin

Re: Compression and Clipping on TLOS - is it that bad? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 02:06 AM CDT

Just do what my band did with our first ep...

Mastered by: You! With your Master Volume knob!

Re: TLOS \ [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 01:50 AM CDT

The opening passage of "Good Kind of Love" sure sounds like "Brian is Back" to me.

There's an even stronger link at the ends of the verses..."she keeps them in a jar..." and "we traveled the world..." both have the same chord sequence behind them. 

Re: Favourite version of Surf's Up? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 01:48 AM CDT

I think the lyrics on those two are probably new, with some of the melodies being vintage.

Re: Favourite version of Surf's Up? [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 01:37 AM CDT

The "Inside Pop" piano version is uniquely expressive and "in the moment". The phrasing
is quirky and artistically expressive and heartfelt.

The first section of the GV box set demo version is heart-stoppingly beautiful, perfect and definitive, except for one SLIGHTLY off-key note on the second "domino", and really captures the quintessence of the song.

My recollection is fuzzy as to whether the additional vocal parts in the tag of the '71 album version were originally composed in '66, or at the time of the SU album production. Surely he would have done something at least similar had it been finished in the period of its original composition.

By the way, does anyone know whether the additional lyrics in "Song for Children" and
"Child is Father of the Man" on BWPS were composed by Van Dyke in '66-'67 a la the
restored "Sandwich Isles" lyrics in "Roll Plymouth Rock" aka "Do You Like Worms", or
written and added during the period of the BWPS composition and production?

I would guess the latter.

Re: it's good.. How could \ [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 01:21 AM CDT

There's really no reason to attack the thread-starter for this one. What's wrong with a wish list? Beach Boys fandom is nonstop full of it (take those last three words however you want). Someone sarcastically asks how you'd fix Pet Sounds? Everyone always makes suggestions on this very board: the most common response, by the way, seems to be replace Sloop John B with The Little Girl I Once Knew. Nothing is sacred, especially when you're talking about a record. Just a record. If you would like it more if A were B, or C were B, fine. Say so. I like TLOS a lot, but I have things I'd change. Doesn't mean I don't like it.

Luther, I appreciate this. The question I asked wasn't meant to be anti-Brian, or his work, perhaps my suggestions were a bit tongue-in-cheek. Perhaps. I'm still trying to work out what I really think of TLOS and what I like or don't like about it, and I guess I thought that this board is a good way to hear what other people reckon. I love reading about how Brian used to re-order and change bits of Smile - sorry that it never emerged at the time, but this experimentation appeals to me. I don't know, but perhaps Brian would understand these days how people could reimagine his music. You could interpret this as cynicism. But I paid a lot of money for concert tickets to see this live and I'm always trying to get friends and family into Brian. I'm really glad he's still going.

Re: BLUE? vinyl 45 [Smiley Smile Message Board]

Posted: 04 Sep 2008 12:45 AM CDT

I bought six, or eight, or something like that from SubPop back in 1997 when I thought they'd become rare and collectible.  Along with almost all of my collection of BB stuff they are stored where in used to live in a different state so I can't check.

I don't really care because I'm not going to sell most of the rare stuff that I have (six or eight discs of a SubPop 45 doesn't count here) but I've been surprised by how little some things I consider very collectible command in the public market (eBay and whatever).  Things (whatever they are) are either worth a shitload or worth next to nothing it seems...  Little middle ground.

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Posted: 03 Sep 2008 11:28 PM CDT

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Posted: 03 Sep 2008 08:51 PM CDT

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BEACH BOYS / BRIAN WILSON DVD DOUBLE Region 1 ["brian wilson"]

Posted: 03 Sep 2008 12:05 PM CDT

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Brian Wilson SEALED BEST BUY CD That Lucky Old Sun NEW ["brian wilson"]

Posted: 03 Sep 2008 11:46 AM CDT

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